OCTOBER 9 2005
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HOST: Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI)
Copyright © 2005-2006 Eugene Ellis. All rights reserved. Legal notice.
GUEST: Richard Dolan
STATION CO-HOST: Scott Wood
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Our guest tonight is a very interesting man. He is author of a book, UFOs and the National Security State, Richard Dolan, studied at Alfred University and Oxford University before completing his graduate work at the University of Rochester. He is a finalist for Rhodes Scholarship. Prior to his interest in UFOs, Mr. Dolan studied Cold War strategy, Soviet history, culture, and international diplomacy. He lives in New York where he is presently working on volume 2 of his study. His book can be purchased at all the major bookstores. With that I would like to welcome Rich - are you on the line?
Richard Dolan: Yes, hi, Gene. Thanks for having me on.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Hi. It's very interesting, there's a thousand books on UFOs. And yet there's not a lot of books focusing on two things, and that is the National Security State, or are freedoms in America, and the UFO controversy. I personally am interested in both subjects because the security aspect of it comes into play with my law practice, and I see all the time, being as old as I am and practicing for 30 years just about now in San Diego, more and more in-roads. Your book, you are now coming out with a sequel to the book, but I'd like you to start off and tell the folks why they should be interested in either subject: in UFOs or how a state like America would protect itself, would protect information that it considered the public not smart enough to assimilate. -
Richard Dolan: Yeah, well I guess I could start by just saying a little over ten years ago I knew nothing about the topic of UFOs, nothing at all. And, like I think a lot of people - the question pops in your mind, and the question is: what is the story with UFOs? Is this nonsense, is this real, or what? And I think many people have this question, I did. In my case, I had a pretty good background in US diplomatic history and national security history at that time. I was doing a lot of detailed study of Harry Truman and the Dwight Eisenhower years also. So, I thought, is this something that ever was taken seriously. And in academic history there is no reference to this whatsoever. But every now and then you come across a reference from this General or that intelligence guy and so forth that would say, well, there is something to the UFO issue, so what I just did was to start a basic bibliographic search and just hunted down the standard books that seemed to be the main ones in the field and then hunted down documents to answer a personal question which was: did the US government and the military in particular ever take this topic seriously, if so, why? And if they did, why am I not reading about it in any history book that I've ever encountered. Even if it was a mistake, even if the military in the 1940s mistakenly thought UFOs were something unusually, why wouldn't be in. What I discovered very quickly was that this was being taken very seriously. Absolutely, yes. And the reason is that there were some very serious military encounters with objects in the 40s and the 50s and the 60s and beyond frankly, doing things that just were not supposed to be possible, according to the military reports. And the thing about the reports is that we really owe it to a golden era in which the Freedom of Information Act, which was really strengthened in the mid 70s, there was only this brief period of time when that Act was really useful to UFO researchers. It was the late 1970s, basically the Jimmy Carter years when he was president. The Act became much less friendly to users in the 1980s and its had its ups and downs. But in the 70s you could petition the government for UFO documents and believe it or not, you'd get some. You wouldn't get all the top secret documents but you'd get some pretty good ones, and even among those documents, while there's not a single smoking gun, there's not a single memo from the president that says "What are we going to do about the aliens?" but there are many documents that are - I consider them one to two cuts below which describe just awesome military encounters: airspace violations by objects that are disc-shaped that are being seen visually, tracked on radar, attempted intercepts fail, the whole bit. So, that got my attention. And it's not just one or two or five reports, it's dozens and indeed hundreds. And so when you start looking at the quantitative, the body of this documentation, I found it very interesting and just got sucked right into the field. One thing that I determined then was that yes, this was serious, this was taken seriously by the military, and, it sure does not appear neither in the reports nor in the conclusions that the military intelligence people were writing, that these were considered to be natural phenomena. In other words, they were considering these things to be somebody's technology. It didn't look like it was American technology simply because of the behavior of these objects. Object comes over, hangs out over Los Alamos, or Oak Ridge, very important sensitive places, or any number of Airforce bases. And the air base commander is wondering - what is this thing? - and he scrambles aircraft to go get it - I mean that doesn't seem like an American project, and so clearly this has national security implications. One thing I would want to point out to listeners is that the UFO thing is not simply some relic of the Cold War, there are military UFO encounters that occur in the post-9/11 era, that is our own era. These continue to happen; it is very difficult to get information about some of these, but we know that it happens, there are a few confirmed cases that do make it to the press, and so, it continues to have national security implications. The problem is that the mainstream media - I'm not talking about radio affiliates necessarily - I'm talking about why are services: CBS, ABC, the large ones - they will not cover this -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): why?
Richard Dolan: Well now we're getting into some other issues, we're getting into the political part of it, and this is for some people very controversial, for others this is a no-brainer. But you're talking about media, and political collusion in many cases to stuff this type of story out. This has been going on for 50 years. We've had clear evidence in many cases that the CIA, for example, has had very close relationships with major US media. We know this for a fact, it's not simply a UFO thing, this is a political thing. CIA in the late 70s, the US House of Representatives investigated a lot of things, it was our one moment in our country's history when a lot of this stuff was being looked at and one thing that came out, one of the revelations was that the CIA had paid relationships with hundreds of US journalists, all covertly, over the years.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Wow.
Richard Dolan: That's right, so that doesn't mean that the CIA could control the media all the time of course, but think about what you could do, personally, if you had four hundred secret paid informants working for you, could you influence certain kinds of news coverage, I think so, could you kill certain stories maybe, yeah, could you plant a fake story every now and then, you bet, and all of this happened. Now, take a few other things that we know. The New York Times for example, one of the really premier journalistic outlets in the nation, in the world. The New York Times had always been incredibly hostile to the whole UFO topic. We know that the New York Times had a very close relationship with the CIA for decade after decade, Arthur Sulzberger, the publisher of the New York Times - we know this - was close with Allen Dulles, the CIA Director, and he had a hotline in his office with the CIA. This was considered very patriotic by journalists throughout the era. The point is though that it doesn't take a great leap of imagination to recognize that the CIA and other agencies in the military had an interest in quashing UFO coverage and we know for a fact that they did; various documents have surfaced and this is true. So, when you talk about the media - Americans, we have this idea, we have this myth of a completely free media. Remember the movie, the original 1953 movie, War of the Worlds.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yes.
Richard Dolan: This is a really amazing movie because one of the scenes in it is when the craft, the object crashes - it's in California in fact, I forget where in California, the object crashes somewhere in the desert. And this is what happens: first the locals go out and they're looking at this thing, and then the military and the media arrive all at the same time. And there's this one scene, just an incredible scene if you really look at it, in which a journalist, a scientist, and a Colonel are all standing together and the journalist is saying, "Well, Colonel, so what do you think this thing is?" and the scientist just jumps right in, right there in front of the Colonel and says, "Well, it clearly seems to be an interplanetary craft." It's an amazing scene because in the 1950s Americans could tell themselves that if something big like this ever went down, hey, media would be right there on this reporting for this public and that's just completely absurd. It was absurd in the 50s, but Americans could tell themselves this in the 50s and maybe even believe it. So the thing is that, how free is our media? - this is one of the things that I think about a lot, I'm not the only one who thinks about -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Well, there was a survey, and I think we rated 16th as far as truthfulness in the news among all the newspapers in the world -
Richard Dolan: oh, the United States
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, but let's flip the coin just for a second and I'll let you get back to this. Suppose, let's take the other side of it: you're a very high ranking official, you've got above top-secret clearance, your secret beeper goes off, you're called in the middle of the night to a meeting and other people are there with the same top clearances and they now have a crushed disk, they have alien bodies, and it's landed, and it happened in a place where you can't hide it, it's in the middle of a city or whatever, your reaction, questions that you're going to be asking, and that everybody is going to be asking: "Oh darn, now what? Can we blame it on anything else, can we get some time until we figure out what to do about this time." And now let's flash for a second that the folks listening to this, or watching TV and now all of a sudden you see these alien bodies on there and the crushed disk. I want not for you to think, I want for you to feel, because you remember the old saying, you can't think and feel at the same time, and I want you to feel the pit in your stomach when you watch this, and then I want you to really think about the reactions that you're going to have, because we're very much, as investigative reporters, and lawyers, and people like this, and we're outraged because the Government is not giving us this material and perhaps even in some cases have killed some people to keep it from getting out and, but there is another side of it: you are now the Government, and the studies that were made, the studies indicated that there would be mass deaths, like the Orson Welles -
Richard Dolan: Mass panic, right.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, where the Orson Welles put on a show and people did not realize that it was a fake and there were a number of suicides. And so I decided to test it on myself, and I just psyched myself into believing this morning that they actually found these things and the reactions are really interesting, because the first reactions are, you're a little mad at your Government, why didn't you protect me from these people, and the second reaction is, I don't know why I have to pay taxes when they've got these other people totally in control -
Richard Dolan: Bingo.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, and so what I'm saying is, like any advocate, like a lawyer in court, like we do in court, we get on our side and we are focused on the other side, and the other side is the enemy, but I also want to bring some reason to it that: did the people, and are the people who are - and after they read your book and hopefully we will get enough time to discuss some of these things tonight - where they're absolutely covering this stuff up, ridiculously so, but, can they be excused at all for what they're doing -
Richard Dolan: Right, you want to know: is there a good case for a coverup?
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah.
Richard Dolan: Well… sure, it depends - look: Let's pretend it's 1947, and you're the President, and I'm your top General, I come up to you and say, "Sir, we've apparently recovered technology that does not originate from our civilization." It is a completely rational decision, one would think, "Ok, let's study this, we can't tell the world about this yet, this is too big. Let's find out, first of all, who are these others, what are their intentions? We don't want the Russians to get hold of this technology necessarily." There is a lot of reasons why you would initiate secrecy protocols over this, I think most people can understand that, the problem is, I see it. There is a threat of panic. We all know what happened with the Orson Welles broadcast in 1938, however, there are other sides of it. The consequences of secrecy are such that - I think that secrecy develops its own momentum. So, let's say you are a scientist working on, trying to figure out some aspect of this technology, or, better yet, you are a manager, you are parceling out the programs for your various contracting companies, and say, "I want you to test the materials of this, I want you to test the magnetic properties of this." And this is how it works in the classified world, the contractors don't know where a lot of these parts would have come from. Their job is not to ask, frequently they're just supposed to tell you, "Wow, this is amazing stuff, and here's why.." So, you start putting this together, and then suddenly your team puts together or comes up with an idea for a new revolutionary product, or a new enhancement, not only do you have a great Cold War technology chip, you've got a great ground floor investment opportunity, opportunity for money, you're involved in tremendous amounts of power. What I do believe has happened with a lot of the UFO issue is that like much of the US military, power has become privatized, so that, it's a legitimate question to ask: who is really in control here? The other thing that I would point out to defenders of coverup is simply that, you get something this big, and it clearly, from my point of view, has involved a great deal of human resources and human money in terms of research and development and a lot of other things, and so, who's paying for this? How long is this going, who's profiting from it and so on. And I believe, frankly, that what we have developed over 50 plus years, it's not just the UFO thing, but there's just so much unaccounted for money, and it's clearly related to a lot of illegal activities flowing through the Government: narcotics trafficking, securities fraud, the whole bit. Trillions of dollars every year in unaccountable, undocumentable expenditures put into the general accounting office. Some of this has got to be related to the UFO program, in my opinion, it'd be insane for it not to be.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, you go into that in your book, and you go into the costs, where originally the covert groups, the CIA, and the predecessors to those groups, they had to find a budget, they had to find a way to get money and without direct oversight for not -
Richard Dolan: That's right -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): not just UFOs, for the other things they were doing. I remember seeing a video of a man who claimed that he was a government official, he was in Mexico, he happened to go to the airport and saw a CIA plane, he worked for the CIA, and it was carrying dope, cocaine, and he started asking questions, he tried to be a whistleblower and instead he ended up being on the run with his wife, going from city to city, and I remember looking at that -
Richard Dolan: Narcotics trafficking, throughout - narcotics trafficking is either the second or third or so largest business in the world. You got weapons manufacture, you got oil, and you got drugs. Everyone wants that money, just because it's illegal doesn't mean people don't want it. My point relating to the UFO coverup is that it is my strong suspicion that revelations about the reality of UFOs - you can't just be half pregnant and you half disclose this, eventually this information is going to come out that a lot of UFO cover-ups have been related to very very illegal government activities, this is again my opinion. And so I think that there are lots of motivations - I don't think public policy is - I don't think they're afraid of you jumping out of your window, what I think is going to happen is that the people who have got the control over the secret are afraid of losing their power, that's what I believe it's about, and public panic, I think, in my opinion is that it's overstate. I want to understate it because I think there are people who would get very freaked out, let's say, but how long would that last? Really. - Let's assume we have aliens here, I think that that's the case, they've been here a long time, they haven't upset the social order, they're here, they're doing something, but they're not coming into the streets and killing people. So the social order theoretically could continue. I think the panic could be a temporary development, and I think instead you have a lot of questions for the governments to answer, very uncomfortable questions.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): What, when we talk about this subject, we are talking about two things: we are talking about UFOs, we are talking about the Security of State and the right of the Government to keep material, which we might feel is relevant to our daily existence, from us. And, before we can really get to that, I think we have to talk a little about the UFO phenomena, which we have been doing. But, most people that are listening to this are thinking, "Give me a break, UFOs: it's a bunch of lights in the sky, it's ball lightning, or something like that, and these guys are all crazy, and let me switch to another station." In reality, there is a very interesting science as to what causes people - I think maybe it is related to the denial I see in alcoholism - what causes people to take things that if you used normal logic patterns - I saw an astronaut several years ago on a video, I can't remember which one it was, and he very matter-of-factly was talking about some things and he said that they were at an Air Force base, a secret military Air Force base, and a disk, a silver disk sat down, it was about 12 feet across, little legs folded out from underneath, sat down, he doesn't know what it was doing, they started to approach it, it made some strange noises, and very silently shot straight up at a 1000 or whatever mile an hour.
Richard Dolan: If I'm not mistaken, you probably were referring to Gordon Cooper, who was talking about Edward Air Force Base.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Right, that was it. And I'm looking in his eyes, and that's what lawyers do, and forgive me for talking about lawyers, but that's what the purpose of this show is: to take the devices that lawyers use in trials and things like that and try to get to the truth. And, believe it or not, one of the things that lawyers do is look people in the eye and try to base their gut feelings on whether or not they're truthful, and I was looking at this man, he's an astronaut, he has everything to lose, he was not a young man when that happened, he has everything to lose, reputation, credibility, and everything, and he gets up there and truthfully he states it, and instinctively I say, "Hey, he said it, that's what happened."
Richard Dolan: Well, indeed. And if I were to continue that, because as someone who practices history, it's a very similar discipline to what lawyers do. You have to construct a case based on evidence. And I always try to distinguish, very clearly, between what I absolutely know and what I think I know and what I think. Now, what I absolutely know, based on actual US Government documents, you cannot deny the reality of these documents, is that there are many, many - I've got them in front of me - there are many serious military reports describing pilot encounters with clearly seen, radar tracked, metallic disk-shaped objects that evade intercept - I can read some. I have a memo to the Director of the CIA from 1952 by his Deputy Director of Intelligence that says, and I quote, this is one sentence, "Sightings of unexplained objects at great altitudes and traveling at high speeds in the vicinity of major US defense installations are of such nature that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles." That's a memo to the Director of the CIA in December, 1952.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): And you have that memo.
Richard Dolan: I'm looking right at it, I'm holding in my hand, got a copy of it in my hand. So, these are memos and documents that are released by the US Government, and again, I want to emphasize that when memos like this were created, there was no expectation on the part of the person writing it that these would ever see the light of day for the public. The Freedom of Information Act was an entirely unforeseen development for these men. And in fact, the Act really did not get going until after 1974 and it really only had a heyday for about five or six years, and then it was actually gutted, essentially, by an executive order in 1982 by then President Reagan. The Act is not overturned, I don't want to give the wrong idea here, but as far as it's usefulness for the UFO topic is concerned, it is extremely minimal. It's very difficult now, in fact, it's almost impossible to get an FOIA document of a US Military encounter after 1980 with UFOs. And we know that they've happened, it's just that you can't get them because they're not being released. Like NORAD, for example, is exempt from FOIA, completely exempt, and NORAD is probably the major receiving report.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): How much does congress know, Rich?
Richard Dolan: Well, Congress, in my opinion - I know for sure, because I do talk with a couple of Congressional aides who are very interested in my work, to whom I give copies of my book for free because I know they get distributed to various members of Congress, I'm told this anyway. So, my understanding is that there is a kind of undercurrent of interest by members of Congress but a real fear, I mean a terror, frankly, of being associated with this topic in public, for obvious reasons, it would just be political suicide for most members of Congress to talk about this. In fact, what I've discovered is when you scratch the surface of our top levels of society, a little bit, you talk to some of these people. I've talked to some very hitting people myself. They're very interested in this topic, and a lot of them, it's more than interest, they have knowledge. But as far as Congress goes, no, I think Congress is by and large totally out of the loop, I think they're essentially window-dressing at this point, not just on UFOs but on so much. They're really unable to manage a worldwide empire, so they're becoming kind of irrelevant.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Who is in the loop? I mean, we talk about Congressmen, we talk about…
Richard Dolan: Well, I can't answer the question directly, but I can give you a pretty good visual. Just before 9/11 Donald Rumsfeld was in Congress, he was being asked by the General Accounting Office to explain some discrepancies in the Pentagon's fiscal year 2000 budget, now, Rumsfeld wasn't even Secretary of Defense in 2000, but he was Secretary of Defense in 2001, and so he was Johnny on the spot as it were. And the GAO was asking Rumsfeld, they said, "Well look, the Pentagon's budget for fiscal year 2000 was about 350 billion dollars, and yet we're finding" - brace yourself here - "2.3 trillion dollars in what the GAO called, undocumentable expenditures for the Pentagon for fiscal year 2000." That's about 8 times the amount, 2.3 trillion dollars. I'm not kidding..
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): That's absolutely amazing.
Richard Dolan: So Rumsfeld's sitting there, he says, "We'll have to get back to you on this." And then 9/11 happened and of course it became impossible to ask this question. And the source on this, I would point out who is incredulous, is the website of a very brilliant financial analyst, Katherine Austin Fitts, who was number 2 at HUD under George Bush Senior. She's not just anyone, she was the Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development after the first President Bush for 4 years, left that, was offered a position of Governor of the Federal Reserve Board, which she turned down to run her own financial firm. She is one of the best analysts you'll find anywhere on the actual black budget of the United States, she talks about this a lot on her website, Katherine Austin Fitts. I highly recommend it, and what she points out - if you look at this Pentagon thing, you got literally trillions of dollars in one fiscal year flowing through the Pentagon. Where did this money come from, where did it go. Well, where it came from she has a pretty good idea. Her thought, as I mentioned earlier, is narco. trafficking, which I've long been interested in. One thing she pointed out that she knows a lot about is securities fraud, stock market fraud, which she has argued is probably even more significant money than drug trafficking. The point is this: You've got multiple times the Pentagon budget in reality flowing through that organization. So where the hell is the real government? I don't really know
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): (re: Richard Dolan's book) … this is a thick book but it's an easy read, and you chronologically go through this, it's not time for me to go through it here, but when you're talking about police officers who are describing objects that are literally sitting over their head, portholes in the darn things. And when you're describing, now this is what gets me, because a police officer is a trained observer, but when you describe some of the pilots, including one that I remember who looked to the left and there was a craft double the size of his international jet, and all the people in there saw it and he saw it, and he was courageous enough to go forward and describe this monstrous thing -
Richard Dolan: Yeah, I believe this is a New York State case if I'm not mistaken?
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): It was a Japanese pilot that was going back and forth…
Richard Dolan: Oh, well this was from the 1980s, I have written about this yet in my book, unless I'm getting my cases mixed up, there are many of these cases, that's the point. After I wrote my book, and I've become with a number of pilots myself who have seen such objects, and in fact what I've discovered is, as you were talking in the first half about looking someone in the eye, I do this as well, I have probably spoken with several hundred UFO witnesses, who, it's even that I solicit stories from them, they find out that I wrote a book on this topic and inevitably they'll say, "Oh, let me tell you what I saw last year, five years ago, twenty years ago" whatever, and I get these amazing stories from people. They're clearly not lying. Some of these are from military individuals and they just unload, a lot of times I'm the first person that they've talked to about these things.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Right, and a pilot, particularly has so much to lose.
Richard Dolan: Yes..
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, because - and if you know very many pilots, and we have some for clients, and if you know very many pilots, you know that they're very engineered type, orientated people, they're not flamboyant, they're not given to very flashy stuff, and they have to be, and they're very much in control of themselves, and for them to give these sorts of reports -
Richard Dolan: Well they have tremendous company, corporate pressure on them these days. But, you know, back in the 50s it wasn't quite, - it took a while for this to come down on them when secrecy orders were kind of a new thing for pilots. This is in my book, I recounted it. I think it was in 1954 that a petition circulated of I think four to five hundred pilots across the US signed this petition, protesting the secrecy orders that had come down on them against reporting flying saucers. And it didn't go anywhere but they had I think four hundred or more pilots. They were very upset about the fact that they were being muzzled against reporting these things. But then, in the aftermath, of course, they ended up losing. And so, now you've had several generations of pilots going through the system and they learn from the beginning: you don't talk about these things.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Let's go in the last of the show to the punitive actions that the Government or the State could take against a person or persons. We might start it off with the story of James Forrestal, Secretary of Defense, I thought that was a very interesting investigation.
Richard Dolan: Oh dear, well yes indeed. I wonder if one would call this punitive, I don't know. Forrestal, for those who do not know, was the United States' first Secretary of Defense. During World War II, he had been Assistant Secretary and then Secretary of the Navy and was a very highly regarded man. Before that, he came from the world of finance, was one of Franklin Delano Roosevelt's dollar-a-year men, these important, rich guys brought in from industry and business to work for the Roosevelt administration for basically nothing. After the war he became the nation's first Secretary of Defense. In fact, he was not Harry Truman's first choice, but it ended up being Forrestal. Now, the thing was this, this is what we know: During 1947 and then 1948, James Forrestal, by everyone who knew him, they could say this man was losing it, he was losing his grip. Now, he had a lot of official problems to deal with, just forget the UFO issue for a minute, it was the Berlin Airlift, there was the Truman reelection bid, and this actually politically helped to sink Forrestal. He was at heart a Republican, he supported Dewey, and it kind of came out during the campaign that he was a Dewey supporter. None of this was good for him. But he was also asked to do something very much impossible which was to make the Joint Chiefs of Staff agree to budget cuts for the Defense Department. This was at a time in which the Secretary of Defense did not have the power to dictate the budget to the Joint Chiefs, he was only like an advisory role. That has changed since then, but in Forrestal's era, he was trying to tell the Joint Chiefs to have a military budget of 15 billion, they're saying we need 36 or more, and so it was an insoluble mess and he lost a lot of political capital. So, it was a stressful year. We know this. However, there was this other problem. You had objects invading US airspace, flying over Oak Ridge repeatedly, flying over Los Alamos, getting the attention of significant scientists and military personnel. So this was going on, Hanford Nuclear Facility out in the state of Washington and so on and so on. Now, what we know about Forrestal was this, he is fired by Truman after Truman gets reelected, but Truman says, "Well, I'm not going to replace you until the end of March 1949." So they give him a nice going away party and he gets into the limo with his worst political enemy, the Secretary of the Air Force, Stuart Symington, who later became a Senator. Symington says, "There's something I need to talk to you about." We know this all happened, now what we don't know is what Symington said or did when they were in the limo. What we do know is the next time anyone saw James Forrestal, he was in his office, sitting ramrod straight, staring at the wall ahead of him, repeating one sentence over and over, which was, "You are a loyal fellow!" Very odd. So, he was taken home, people thought that, you know, he's not right. And then, within a day was flown to Florida. All of these National Security guys were around him. And then he is taken to Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland, and he's sent up to the 18th floor, the top of the hospital, and he's given sedatives and all this go by for weeks, and he's improving, according to everyone who saw him..
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): But he's not allowed to see people.
Richard Dolan: He's not allowed to see people, he's not allowed to see his priest, Monsignor, Father Sheehy, who was a Navy Chaplain, who tried five, six, seven times to see Forrestal, was denied every time. Forrestal's brother Henry was twice allowed to see him but only after. He complained and complained and complained, for the longest time he couldn't see his brother, and got to see him two times, said "Hey, my brother looks great."
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): And they put him on the 17th floor for a guy that some people thought might be suicidal but the doctor himself said no, he's not.
Richard Dolan: Correct. There are a lot of other things. So, Henry Forrestal finally decides, you know, "Enough of this garbage, I'm getting my brother out." And he called the hospital, and he said, "I'm coming to get my brother on Monday, May 22nd, and you better let me take him out." And that morning, 1:30 that morning, James Forrestal died. And he died when there was a new guard on duty. There just happened to be a new Navy Corpman on duty that night for the first time. Well, gee, isn't that an odd coincidence. And it is only on that person's testimony, by the way, that we have any information at all on what Forrestal's last moments were like. And you know, it's a weird thing to accuse this person 50, 60 years later of murder, but this is very odd, frankly. And, when you consider - I mean, Forrestal, in my opinion, was very possibly considered a security risk - Here is a guy whose mental condition may not have been reliable, he knew things. -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Well, he had these numbers of loose-leaf books that they mysteriously packaged up and took to the White House because they said that he said that he wanted Truman to have them when Truman just got done firing him.
Richard Dolan: Yeah, they were politically enemies. He certainly didn't want Truman to have his diaries, there is no way, no question about that.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Right, so something was in those loose-leaf notebooks. He's being followed, he says, by foreign-looking men -
Richard Dolan: It's possible that one could interpret this in a non-UFO context of course -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, of course -
Richard Dolan: But the question is, what would it be that would cause someone to want to kill Forrestal?
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Well, there is a protocol in these mental hospitals that says that if there is any sort of a risk of possibly them hurting themselves, they don't put them on the 17th floor.
Richard Dolan: That's right, yes.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): And that was violated. Mysteriously, the brother, thanks to reading your book. The brother says, "That's it, I'm getting my brother out of there." Henri Forrestal, and he let's them know that he's coming to take the man out. Now, this is a man that has such stature and yet he's been unable to see his priests, he's been unable to see anybody - finally, the brother forced his way in, now the brother says he is taking him out, and then mysteriously his regular guard is replaced by a new fellow -
Richard Dolan: Right -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): And then you can tell them how they found him, or how he allegedly killed himself.
Richard Dolan: Well, right, the details of this were simply that he was found with his bathrobe cord tied tightly around his neck. He jumped, he jumped out the window. According to the official story, the guard knocked on his door at 1:30 in the morning and said he found Forrestal up and reading, and said that Forrestal did not want to take a sedative. Now for some reason the guard thought this was odd, according to his testimony, because he says that he went in to look for another doctor to wake him up -- why would he wake up a doctor for this, I don't know - and said, when he came back Forrestal was gone. What Forrestal would have been able to do, theoretically, was run out of the room, I mean race out of the room, find a tiny little kitchenette window that was, recently had been unlocked, and tie one end of his bathrobe to the radiator that was just below this window, and then the other end very tightly around his neck, and he did this kind of bungee jump out the window. The cord loosened from the radiator and he fell to his death. The problem though, is that investigators the next day saw distinct scratch marks on the outside of the sill, indicating, the official story was, well he must have changed his mind about killing himself.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Right, right. Well, apparently he changed his mind several times, because as your book points out, the official story was that he is writing a script and he stops right in the middle of a word and decides to run out and hang himself.
Richard Dolan: Correct, he was transcribing a passage from a play of Sophocles, actually, an ancient Greek strategy, but stopped in the middle of a word, in the middle of a word. So he had this instant, intense desire, presumably, to kill himself right at that moment.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): And then he changed his mind again as he's outside the window.
Richard Dolan: Right.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): And then, the really interesting thing is that the priest is called there, because now his body falls out the window, bangs off a protrusion, and he is of course very dead. His priest comes, there is a whole lot of people there, and a very senior looking hospital orderly comes up to him, right ---
Richard Dolan: I forgot that I wrote this, this is true, from the sources that I looked at. The orderly said to the priest, "Sir, you do know what happened to the Secretary, don't you?" or something like that, right, I can't remember what it was, but that was the paraphrase and -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): He said, "You know he didn't kill himself."
Richard Dolan: "He didn't kill himself." Right.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): "Father, you know he didn't kill himself."
Richard Dolan: Right.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): That was his words, and then the other crowds kind of bunched in and let him out. So we have, maybe a political murder, maybe nothing connected with UFOs, but we certainly know from looking at the Kennedy thing and other things that these mysterious - when these really high ranking people are eliminated, there is a whole lot of awful big coincidences, and with my background, I'm not very much for coincidences -
Richard Dolan: Exactly, and the thing is, why include this story about Forrestal in a book that is ostensibly about the UFO topic and I do so because, first of all, it seems to me that Forrestal was a logical man that would have had knowledge and information about the UFO problem, and it was a problem at that time. To me, the UFO topic was the big elephant in the dining room that no one was allowed to talk about. And so, it was absent, it's absent from all of our historical understanding of who we are and what our history is, and yet it's there. So if you can't talk about it, it's this big thing, I'm trying to see, you know, is there a reason to believe that there is a connection, and I think there is reason to believe that there is a connection. This is not the same level as proof, and I don't want to mislead a listener here that I've somehow solved it, I have not. But there are serious gaps in our understanding of our history, and the UFO problem is simply, it's a big one. What I have tried to do in my book is, in a sense, this is rather an ambitious thing, I tried to rewrite American history in the sense by including this topic into the mainstream of American history, that's really what I try to do, it is in a sense a reinterpretation of the last 50 plus years of our own history. I can't say that this is the final end station of it, this is a beginning, and I do hope that others will continue to follow and improve on what I've been trying to do.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Tell me about your new book and what's going to be in it. We've only touched a little bit -
Richard Dolan: Oh yeah, well there's so much -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): just a tiny little bit of these UFO scenarios -
Richard Dolan: It's a 500 page book, the first one, and the second one - and the first one covers, it's straightforward historical narrative, it goes from the 1940s to the early 70s. Volume 2 will to be done in about one year. I've got a tremendous amount of research done on it, more, in fact, than I did on the first book and that will take the story from the early 70s to the present day, and it will be probably at least 600 pages I am guessing. So, essentially trying to lay out the story, clearly, without a lot of grandstanding, what happened then what happened then what happened… Early in the hour, you and I were discussing a lot of political and conspiratorial types of concepts. I would like to emphasize that there is a tremendous amount of this topic on which one does not need to speculate at all. And it's not necessary, depending on what level you want to go to sort of go into this "Government is evil" kick. What you can do is simply take an empirical approach to this problem and look at factual history that is not arguable. And this is in fact what I really try to do with my book, and a variety of articles, since my book came out, I have taken a bit more of an analytical stand against what I believe is a kind of deep pervasive, deep deep deep corruption on the part of the people who call themselves our government. But that's different, ok? With the UFO topic, with the coverup of UFOs, you could defend it as you tried to do earlier in the hour and that is a legitimate thing to try to do, but let's first - rather than argue for or against, let's just understand what is going on. We have to understand the facts before we start doing interpretations. And so, really what I will be pointing out, is providing a, hopefully, a clear, reliable, historical, narrative so that other people can kind of pick up the ball and run with it.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): A lot of people are not going believe that CBS or NBC or any of these very large stations are actually going to actively try to keep stories about flying saucers -
Richard Dolan: These people, truthfully, to say that just tells me that they really have no understanding of what media is and how it operates.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Tell them about Keyhoe, what happened when he went on CBS.
Richard Dolan: Donald Keyhoe was a retired Marine Corps Major, who in fact had been a friend of Charles Lindberg back in the 20s and was a friend of the first Director of the CIA, Roscoe Hillenkoetter. They were Annapolis classmates and friends, lifelong friends. Keyhoe was friends with a lot of upper level Navy brass, as a Marine Corps Major it's not surprising. And he got interested in the flying saucer topic back in the 50s and in fact became the most prominent spokesperson against secrecy of the 1950s and 60s. So, Keyhoe got on TV in 1958 for a TV show back then called the Armstrong Theatre Circle. And, he was on there with an Air Force representative, like a pro and con type thing. Keyhoe was about to talk about what he considered to be absolute proof of the US Government coverup on UFOs, this is January, 1958. And suddenly, just as he was about to say it, the mike cut out. The entire - this is nationwide broadcast - the whole country was wondering what happened, and in fact, it did turn out that it was the policy of the television station, in accordance with what the military had asked, to cut the audio if Donald Keyhoe was going to say anything that they believe affected National Security and they cut the mike.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): About UFOs affected National Security.
Richard Dolan: Absolutely, that was 1958.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): So UFOs are a hoax, they are nothing, they are little light balls, but they do affect National Security. One last thing, you made a very interesting quote here from Von Braun. Now, I think most people would recognize that's the father of all of our rocket scientists.
Richard Dolan: Yeah, right.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): He made a comment in Germany, he said, "We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than we had hitherto assumed, whose base is at present unknown to us. More I cannot say at the present, we are now engaged in entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or nine months time it may be possible to speak with more precision on the matter." He allegedly made that statement in Germany -
Richard Dolan: Yes.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): In 1959, I believe it was. And, that's a very - I mean for that to come out of a man of that scientific stature, I think should give people -
Richard Dolan: Well, it's an amazing thing, because what happens - see, this is not the only time when you get a significant quote outside the United States. I think what happens is that a lot of these people feel more at liberty to speak when they are out of the US. And what also has been the case through, I think the 50s certainly, and the 60s and to our own time is that at various points along the spectrum it appears that UFO disclosure might happen at any moment. And this was the case more than one time. So, it's also true that Von Braun's mentor, a man named Hermann Oberth, who was his teacher in rocketry. Oberth also, like Von Braun, came to work for the US Airspace industry in the 1950s. Oberth was this like prototypical absent-minded professor, a very brilliant man. Oberth, unlike Von Braun, very publically - I mean, he wrote a book that dealt with the UFO topic and wrote publically about the reality of flying saucers as not of human origin. So, Von Braun's own mentor was a very strong believer in this -
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Wow.
Richard Dolan: And these two men of course were close throughout their history in Germany and the United States, so there are a lot of things that connect Von Braun to this as well. There is the claim, the statements by another lady, Carol Rosin, who did know Von Braun towards the end of his life, and she has claimed steadfastly that Von Braun told her, towards the end of his life, that yes, this is real, this is absolutely a real thing, and he seemed to be concerned about the humans powers that be more than the non-human ones. You get statements by the former head of Lockheed's Skunkworks divisions, Ben Rich. Ben Rich succeeded Kelly Johnson heading Skunkworks. This is where they developed the U2, the SR-71 Blackbird stealth fighter. Ben Ridge publicly spoke about UFOs on more than one occasion, most famously at the UCLA alumni School of Engineering meeting in 1983, and he was very upfront about this.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Richard Dolan, UFOs and the National Security State. I couldn't even get to a tenth of what was in the book, but it is so much more effective when you read it and you see and you actually look at these things through the eyes of the people that saw them. I appreciate so much, Rich, you coming on with me and -
Richard Dolan: My pleasure.
Eugene Ellis (Mr. DUI): Yeah, I think it was very very interesting.
Richard Dolan: There's a lot in there.
Scott Wood: And we'll look forward to the new book, coming out next year, wonderful.
Richard Dolan: Thanks, Doing my best.
Scott Wood: Thank you very much, again, Richard Dolan: UFOs and the National Security State, you can pick it up at most major retailers across the nation. That is going to do it for this edition of The Other Side of the Story.